Pavel Selin. Selin Pavel Viktorovich - A different outcome was possible

Continue the conversation >>>. Pavel Selin talks about the “post-Belarusian” period of work at NTV, about tightening the screws, his films about Shevchuk and Chernomyrdin, a seminar in Voronezh, and that today he is happy to work on a channel where there is no censorship.

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“Working for Parfenov is my greatest pride”

I returned to Russia. The most important post-Belarusian period is, of course, Parfenov’s year and a half in “Namedni”. I worked in the program until it was closed in 2004.

“Namedni” appeared on NTV during the period of my work in Belarus. Once or twice a month I made stories for Parfenov. Almost all of Eastern Europe was on me. I did 10 or 15 stories. For “Namedni” this is a lot. Especially for an author who does not live permanently in Moscow. It so happened that none of the corset correspondents did as many stories for Parfenov’s program as I did.

I was torn between two editions. My main job was to make news. And “Namedni” was a kind of journalistic hobby. It was always very difficult, associated with terrible energy and physical costs, but it was cool.

Working on Parfenov’s program, I felt like I did in 1993, when I was sitting in a Voronezh hostel, watching NTV in fascination and dreaming of working on television. Being already the director of the NTV bureau in Minsk, I could not even imagine that I would ever work in a team headed by Kolya Kartozia. Then he will become my close friend. The fact that I was able to work with such an incredible person as Parfyonov in two of his projects is, of course, my greatest pride. Quite recently - a year ago - I did several stories in his project “Parfyonov” on the Dozhd TV channel. But, unfortunately, this project also ended...

Before the closure of Namedni, when I was already working in Moscow, it was a time of absolute happiness. I was no longer tied to Minsk, I didn’t have to work off my news work. I could deal exclusively with stories for the soul. And “Namedni” was always for the soul. To my incredible happiness and surprise, I became a regular author with Parfenov.

In just two and a half years of my work in this project, I made about 20 stories. Five of them became “Best Stories of the Issue.” To make the best story in the episode “Namedni” is a complete cosmos. Incredibly powerful authors worked next to me, such as Lobkov, Loshak, Varentsova, Rogalenkov and many others, with whom it was incredibly difficult for me to compete at that time.

When Parfenov’s program closed, I worked in the news for some time. I spent the entire first “Orange Revolution” in Kyiv, reporting from the first Maidan. We worked on a rotational basis. Two weeks there, two in Moscow. And then, with “Program Maximum”, the NTV prime broadcasting directorate arose, headed by the former editor-in-chief of “Namedni” Kolya Kartozia.

Once we tried to expose a pseudo-Orthodox sect. We lived in ambush for six months, trying to track down the main one - Father Cyprian. We initially behaved incorrectly, which is why all legal paths to this sect were cut off for us. There is a video where I, in despair, decided to “soar” above them. They rented an entire house in Sergiev Posad, surrounded by a huge fence, through which it was impossible to look through. We drove a crane to their estate, and together with the operator we climbed into the cradle. And from there, in the style of Gleb Zheglov, I shouted: “And now - Father Cyprian! I said - Cyprian!!!

I worked at Program Maximum for one television season. After that I made two films in the “Russian Sensations” cycle, and then there was another very important project in my life - “The Main Character”.

"Main character"

“The Main Character” consists of stories on various topics in the “special report” genre. My main pride in “The Main Hero” is, of course, the story about Shevchuk. We filmed it for a whole year, this is one of the few big television stories about him that have ever appeared on federal television channels; Now it’s not at all clear when such a plot will be able to appear again. I also managed to make large portrait essays about Garmash, Nemtsov, and Bukovsky. And also - a detective story about the life and death of the Soviet actor Boris Sichkin, who played Buba Kastorsky in films about the elusive Avengers, a plot about a fantastic heroine with an incredibly tragic fate of Sylvia Kristel, the leading actress in the acclaimed film "Emmanuelle".

Pavel Selin speaks at the journalism department at VSU

At the seminar in Voronezh I will be showing my scenes from “The Main Character”. I will show a number of stories that show different approaches to the “special report” genre. In most cases, I choose this topic for my seminars, because a special rap is a compilation form of the entire news process. The special report has everything: news, analytics, and documentaries. In terms of dramaturgy, special rap is a kind of mini-genre of a documentary film. It has everything that a documentary should have: composition, intrigue, undirected, live moments and much more...

I will not try to teach anyone using the example of this genre - it is impossible in such a short time, I'll try to tell the story of my mistakes. This will be the story of what I personally got burned by. There are a lot of things I would do differently now. I have a number of very striking examples.

“My “Last Word” became the last”

The talk show only lasted a year and a month. At first, “The Last Word” was announced as an investigative program. But already the pilot episode of this program showed that the existence of a truly investigative talk show in our country, even then, in 2010, was impossible. The pilot episode was about the case of Major Evsyukov, who killed two people and wounded several. We conducted an incredible investigation that lasted more than one month and completely reconstructed this entire story, from the first second to the tragic ending. We discovered that no one had ever talked about this case before or since. But this pilot episode was banned from airing. The authorities said: “Old guys, our police are, of course, bad, but we only have one. Let's not show this program."

And there were several such programs in the talk show “The Last Word”. A program about growing nationalism in society and the events on Bolotnaya Square was banned. The issue about Bolotnaya Square became, in fact, I apologize for the tautology, “the last word.” It became the last point, which, in fact, decided the fate of this program.

There were incidental situations. We recorded a program about corruption, where the main character was the mayor of the town of Serpukhov near Moscow, Shestun. He uncovered a scheme of underground casinos, which were protected by the Moscow region prosecutor's office. We received orders to cut Shestun out of the program. And around him is the whole program. I don’t remember what we did, it seems we just didn’t put this program on the air, we put it on some kind of repeat.

There were several good purely investigative issues. For example, about the poisoner who killed people on Moscow trains. He put psychotropic substances in their drinks to rob them, and people died. He has more than 20 lives to his name. And I had it with him direct connection from Butyrka prison! One of my favorite films is Natural Born Killers. The story of this inclusion from prison was an absolutely exact repetition of the plot of this film.

There were issues that I was absolutely dissatisfied with, but they were a minority. There are episodes that, it seems to me, are absolutely breakthrough, like a program dedicated to corruption in the army and traffic police. We achieved the absolutely impossible. We made an investigative program about the death of Magnitsky! A full investigation with a reconstruction of how he was brought to death in prison.

Then the talk show was reformatted. From a purely investigative program, from what we were able to do at first, it became a “program of popular anger.” Against corruption, against the unfair attitude of officials towards people, and so on.

Naturally, such a program on NTV could not last long. The situation in the country has changed dramatically and very quickly. And, of course, it all ended with Bolotnaya Square. As soon as the events on Bolotnaya Square took place, the presidential administration realized that this entire liberal shop had to be closed.

And just the first program that was closed by an unspoken order from the Kremlin was my “Last Word”. This was the beginning of tightening the screws.

For another six months I worked as editor-in-chief and co-host on the NTVshniki program. We held out as long as we could. In the summer of 2012, the entire liberal part of NTV was almost completely destroyed. These are the programs “NTV-Shniki”, “The Last Word”, “Profession Reporter” and others. They were all closed and people were fired. The HR department told me a wonderful phrase: “Pavel, there is no more work for you on the channel.”

Today

“I’m happy that nowadays I can work on a channel without censorship”

I went on a completely free voyage. Today my main work is the RTVi channel. Russian-language American television, headquartered in New York. The channel broadcasts to the USA, Germany, Israel. They see it in the Baltic states, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia...

I run two programs. "Megapolis" is a weekly program about events in Moscow during the week. And the socio-political talk show “Abroad” about issues and problems that interest our audience abroad (dual citizenship, international marriages, etc.). Both programs are weekly.

All this year I have been making documentaries for RTVi and the Rossiya channel. Two have already aired. This is the film “Medicine for the Elite” and “Team” about the Russian national football team (both were shown at “Russia”). Now another film is being prepared, dedicated to the 40th anniversary of the victory of Vietnam in the war with the Americans. We filmed this film for a very long time and persistently. Filming took place in Vietnam, America, and Russia. Very serious work... And besides this, I am currently preparing several projects for RTVi.

RTVi for me is one of the few chances to stay in the profession. To work on a channel where there is no censorship, where you don’t have to talk about the “ukrofashists”, about the “punitive” operation in Ukraine, about everything that is now broadcast on federal channels in Russia. I’m just lucky to work on such Russian-language television in our time.

“Life has changed so dramatically around us that it should be a different movie now.”

In 2007, I began filming a documentary about Shevchuk, the leader of the DDT group. The film about Shevchuk was conceived as a film about Russia. Using the example of Shevchuk, with his help, as if through his eyes, I want to look at how our country is changing.

The situation around my hero is changing rapidly. I watch with horror how the country is changing. If earlier I was shooting more of a biographical film: here Yura is on stage, here he is at a rehearsal, here he is acting in films, wandering around churches, but now life has changed so dramatically both around him and around all of us that now it should be a completely different movie. About the catastrophically changed circumstances around my main character, me, and around all of us.

Filming has now slowed down a bit. I'm sure we'll finish it. If we make a film by 2017, it will be great: two five-year plans in the life of the country, DDT and Shevchuk. There is already a title for the film: “Yura the Musician.” And the subtitle: “Ten”!

The main thing, of course, is that Shevchuk himself wants us to complete the film. We have a very good relationship with him, we call each other and periodically talk about where the country is going. He is going through a very difficult period right now because of everything that is happening with Ukraine. It's very, very difficult for him now. And the film is still slowing down, perhaps due to the fact that he now does not want to aggravate an already very serious situation with some careless word. And I don’t want to put pressure on him, of course. But I hope that this is not for long, and we will continue very soon.

Photo by Ilya Kukolev, Sergey Yatsky
and from the personal archive of Pavel Selin

Almost every person living in the vast post-Soviet space has probably watched NTV broadcasts more than once. Pavel Selin, a famous journalist and TV presenter who worked on this TV channel his entire adult life, was fired, like many of his “old school” colleagues. What is happening with television in Russia and Belarus? What is the future of broadcast journalism? How is the television of a neighboring state changing in connection with new political trends? The former NTV journalist answered these and many other questions the day before at the Minsk Hotel in the capital.

Not only Pavel Selin’s colleagues - Belarusian journalists - came to the meeting, but also ordinary viewers who, over the years of work as an NTV correspondent in Belarus, became his fans. It is worth recalling that Pavel, and his five-year ban on entry into Belarus ended quite recently.

Now it’s February 2013,” he says Pavel Selin. - And last year, 2012, my close friend and colleague Georgy Andronikov, editor-in-chief of NTV, a man with whom a lot is connected, very aptly called “the year of the scorched earth.” The words are very loud, but at the same time sad and bitter. And this year has really been like that for all of us. After all, it was in 2012 that the same old and free NTV finally ceased to exist. I don't know if it's forever or not. But I hope not forever.

How did this even happen? Pavel Selin has his own vision of the situation.

- In 2001, it was decided to reformat the channel that I came to work for back in 1997. This process lasted for 11 years, from 2001 to 2012. In the past period in the history of the TV channel, people associated the green NTV ball at such an internal psychological level with the word “liberalism”. When a person saw this green ball on the TV screen, images of freedom of speech, pluralism of opinions, and so on were born on a subconscious level.

The task that was set in 2001 in the Kremlin for the management of the TV channel was the following: so that this green ball would cease to be associated with the word “liberalism”. And all these 11 years, the current management of NTV has done everything so that it becomes associated with the word “crime”. I’m even ready to bet with all of you: if there was any TV in this room and we turned it on to the NTV channel, now there would be a moment where someone is killing someone. Or you would see something like this on the news. That is, either in the series someone is killing bandits, or some investigator is thinking hard about how to kill this or that hero. This whole trend, from freedom of speech to crime, flowed for 11 years.

Next, Pavel Selin tried to explain to Belarusians why it happened this way and not otherwise.

- You all know that NTV was created in 1993 with the money of the Russian oligarch Gusinsky. This oligarch once walked around Yeltsin for a very long time, wanting to buy a frequency. But everything was done through Chernomyrdin. It was the then prime minister who managed to convince the president to give Gusinsky the 4th federal button. As a result, from 1993 to 2001, liberal and maximally free television began to flourish there. It is clear that there is no absolutely free TV channel - after all, NTV was forced to “serve” Gusinsky. When Gusinsky was friends with the Kremlin, NTV killed the Kremlin’s enemies. When Gusinsky ceased to be friends with the authorities (and this happened periodically), then NTV began to “wet” the Kremlin itself. But with all this, the TV channel itself, again, could “wet” Gusinsky himself. They got away with it like cute childish pranks. Because NTV was the most free television possible.

And in 2001, Gusinsky was first arrested and then survived from the country. During several hours of interrogation at the prosecutor's office, he handed over all media archives and assets. So NTV got a new owner - Gazprom. That is, in fact, the Kremlin.

What is happening with NTV today? In Pavel Selin’s opinion, the TV channel suffers not so much from external censorship as from internal one.

- In my opinion, it would be much more honest to close this channel. Or call it, for example, “A Share of Truth” or “A Drop of Conscience.” But our wonderful media strategists are much more cunning. They acted both very Jesuitically and very faithfully in their own way. They retained the external form, cover and title, but completely replaced the internal content. So that people stop even remembering that there once was another NTV.

Even until relatively recently, in the “Namedni” program we could show, for example, an image of Putin sitting in the robes of a metropolitan, the priest of all Rus'. Now the authors simply do not have such thoughts. Because if something similar is born in someone, then everything is discarded at an early stage due to closed-mindedness and too strong internal self-censorship. And now, if you look at the channel’s design package, it has outwardly changed in mood and psychology. That is, if earlier it was calm green and blue tones, now it is blood red and yellow. Something is being sawed all the time. For example, I really like the screensaver with the grinder, the sparks fly. A real symbol of the "pilge" of money.

But all these years, even after the closure of Namedni, we tried to preserve the old NTV. In particular, Nikolai Kartozia created the prime broadcasting directorate, in which we have worked in recent years. It united a whole cluster of liberal-oriented programs. First of all, “Profession: reporter”, “NTV people”, “The main character”, “Central Television”. This also included projects of the “pop” direction: “Program Maximum”, “Russian Sensations”.

This directorate existed until 2012. And, oddly enough, the system of checks and balances worked, especially in the early years. That is, there were actually two NTVs. One is the directorate of prime broadcasting, and the other is the very “criminal” NTV. But the second gradually but surely replaced the first. And it was forced out.

A lot happened after that. But none of us, NTV veterans, gave up. There was a lot. For example, even when we were almost completely deprived of our wages, we stayed. Out of principle. We held out until the last.

Then Pavel Selin told Belarusians about “alternative” channels such as Dozhd and KontrTV, actually criticizing them. When asked by a TUT.BY correspondent about the prospects and main trends in the development of television in Belarus and Russia, the former NTV staff correspondent answered this:

- Now a new trend has emerged - mysticism. And this mysticism is everywhere now. I'm afraid to admit it to you, but even I will now be conducting a mystical program. But with a bit of common sense. The future seems to me in a sad light, excuse the pessimism. And why? Yes, because there cannot be free television without a free country. And there cannot be a free country without free television. This is such a vicious circle.

Pavel Selin also spoke about the interesting results of the study: it turns out that people... like to watch scenes of violence, which increase the audience of any channel. But at the same time, their frequent displays lead to the degradation of both society and individuals. The more blood and violence you show on TV, the more blood and violence there is on the streets. And the more blood and violence on the streets, the more of it on TV. This is how it turns out to be a vicious circle...

(09/28/1974 Zakamensk, Buryat Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic).

Journalist, TV presenter.

Graduated from the Faculty of Journalism of Voronezh State University in 1996.

From 1992 to 1998 he worked at the Voronezh State Broadcasting Company. He worked his way up from a freelance intern to the presenter and director of the Voronezh News program.

From 1998 to 2001 - freelance correspondent for NTV in Central Russia.

From 2001 to 2003 - correspondent and director of the NTV representative office in the Republic of Belarus.

From 2003 to 2004 - correspondent for the Namedni program.

From 2004 to 2005 - correspondent for the “Today” program.

From 2005 to 2007 - correspondent for the Maximum Program, from 2007 to 2009 - correspondent for the Main Hero program, from 2009 to 2010 worked in the Main Hero Presents cycle.

From 2010 to 2011, author and host of the talk show “The Last Word.” Many episodes of this program became winners of various television competitions in 2011. In particular: the Ministry of Internal Affairs “Shield and Feather” award, the television competition “Unity”, “Media against corruption”.

In 2011 he won the prize of the Union of Journalists of Russia for the documentary film about V.S. Chernomyrdin “Stepanych”

#RFRM help: Pavel Selin is a Russian journalist and TV presenter. In television journalism since 1992. In 2001 - 2003 he worked as a correspondent and director of the NTV representative office in Belarus. In June 2003, he was deported from the country by personal order of President Lukashenko for reporting on the funeral of the writer Vasil Bykov.Pavel actively covered events in Belarus in the NTV programs “Central Television”, “The Last Word”, “Namedni”, “Program Maximum”. After leaving NTV in 2012, he collaborated with RTVI, Dozhd, RBC and taught the basics of television skills in Russia, Kazakhstan, Kir Georgia, Ukraine and Belarus.

— Belarus has been a “scarecrow” for quite a long time» for Russians- both in the 1990s and early 2000s: the director of a state farm at the head of the country, repression, disappearance of politicians and journalists. In modern Russia, do you have the feeling that you have returned to 2001-2003, when you worked in Minsk at the dawn of the Lukashenko era?

— On June 29, 2003, when I was deported from Belarus on Lukashenko’s personal order, one remarkable story happened... On the first day after the deportation, I went on air on the Ekho Moskvy radio, where I was asked to tell the details of the deportation. And on the evening of June 29 there was a party for Leonid Parfenov’s “Namedni” program.

Film crews from NTV and TV6 against the backdrop of the KGB central office: Konstantin Morozov, Pavel Selin, Maria Malinovskaya and Vladimir Andronov

I worked very closely with them then, and it so happened that my arrival in Moscow after deportation coincided with the party that was dedicated to the closing of the 2003 season, the program was going on summer vacation. By that time, I was already a regular author and did from one to three stories from Poland, the Baltic states and Belarus every month for Namedni. So, naturally, I was invited. At this party, a not very pleasant and not very beautiful scene took place.

I practically quarreled with several of my colleagues, NTV journalists, trying to prove to them that in Moscow it would be exactly the same as in Minsk.

We had a very tough conversation. I was told that this was impossible, no matter what Putin was. I said that there are all the prerequisites for the fact that in Russia everything will be exactly the same as what happened in your country. We quarreled to smithereens, but, unfortunately, I was right. You could say that I croaked... But even then I had a strong feeling that everything that happened in Belarus since the mid-1990s was a testing ground for Russia. I have this version.

— Conspiracy theory?

- No, no, no conspiracy theories. Everything has been proven by time. Time and specific events. I have such a theory, and for myself I call it the Russian-Belarusian time loop: everything that happens in Minsk, sooner or later happens in Moscow.

As a news correspondent for NTV in Minsk, Pavel also did stories for Namedni. In this frame, sitting next to Parfenov is Nikolai Kartozia, the then editor-in-chief of Namedni, the creator and director of Friday (and now the president of ProfMedia-TV)

— It’s no secret that even after the collapse of the USSR and the restoration of Belarusian independence, many Russians (including in democratic and liberal environments) still regard Belarus as a small Russian colony.

- Unfortunately yes. Liberal people who think, understand, and know history, of course, do not have such chauvinistic thoughts. But a huge number of people, to a greater or lesser extent, have the following thoughts: Lukashenko is completely dependent on Putin, Russia feeds Belarus, Russia can rightfully place its military bases in your country, and so on blah blah blah in the form of “patriotic” theses about the “Russian-Belarusian union”, “younger brothers” and “Belarus is the last buffer before NATO.”

— How did the attitude towards Belarus change after the start of the Russian war against Ukraine?

“I think the attitude hasn’t changed much.” No one in Russia shouted and said that Belarus was next in line. This did not happen. Understand that even in the liberal part of Russian society there is no consensus on many issues. If you ask people at opposition rallies “whose Crimea is?”, not everyone will answer that it is Ukrainian. A huge number of people will answer that Crimea is only Russian.

— But the answer to the question “Whose Crimea?”» over the past 4 years, without unnecessary pathos, it has acquired the meaning of an existential marker in both our and your country. How do you answer this question?

Pavel Selin and Belarusian presidential candidate Semyon Domash on Skaryna Avenue in Minsk. year 2001

— I will answer that Crimea is Ukrainian. It is Ukrainian in historical justice, but now it is Russian de facto. The Ukrainian topic is generally very sore not only for hardened patriots, but also for a serious part of liberal society in Russia. After the start of the war with Ukraine, tension arose regarding Belarus among the Russian elites, including the jingoistic elites. It's not strong, but it's there.

“Patriots” believed that the next “Euromaidan” could happen in Minsk.

And this idea became popular, of course, not without the help of our dear main ally Alexander Grigorievich, who very diligently convinced everyone that you have Belarusian militants in your country who set up camps on the territory of Belarus and are supposedly training to make a “color revolution.”

— You, of course, understand that the “cause of patriots”,mystical terrorist camps, fake breakthrough of the Belarusian border from the Ukrainian side-lies?

- Yes, this is all fake, of course. These are stories that benefit Lukashenko. His inquisitive mind... or rather the inquisitive - in quotes - “mind” of his not very talented propagandists did not come up with anything smarter. The message about militants was rather clumsily fueled.

After all, everyone understands perfectly well that there cannot be any serious camps for training Belarusian militants, much less on the territory of Belarus.

And certainly no “color revolution” through a popular uprising in Belarus should be expected in the near future. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that under such a brutal, authoritarian, dictatorial rule, such events are impossible in your country - unlike in Ukraine.

— In 2003, in an interview with Czech television journalist Marjan Gluk, you said that Lukashenko would last five years. Then it sounded not like a verdict on Lukashenko, but as a warning that this man was setting long-term prospects for himself and would not voluntarily resign as president. How has he managed to maintain power for 23 years?

“It seems to me that his secret is his animal sense of power, his ability to clear the territory around him and destroy any danger to his power. Lukashenko knows how to raise those around him who will never encroach on his power in their lives. He had a very good teacher - Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin. I think that Lukashenko learned a lot from Stalin. It seems so to me.

A still from the story from Bykov’s funeral, for which Pavel Selin was deported from Belarus

“Be that as it may, we are all getting old.” And one day you have to leave not by the will of the people, but by the call of eternity. How will events unfold if the president dies without leaving a political successor?

“I think this is one of the biggest problems for Lukashenko: who to leave in his place so that he is not put behind bars or made a bargaining chip in other people’s games. This is a huge issue for him and I think he doesn't trust anyone at all.

- Why? It seems to me that Kolya Lukashenko is a completely trustworthy young man.

- No, he doesn’t even trust his sons. The most obvious path for him is North Korean: inheritance through family ties. But still, Belarus is not the DPRK yet. Or already?

— Fortunately, not yet. You see that we can calmly carry on this conversation and even publish it.

“We will definitely see how Lukashenko will get out of the problem of finding a successor.” I think that the problem of succession to the throne and the problem of the heir is always the biggest needle in the feather bed of every feudal regime.

— Recently, in an interview with #RFRM, Frantisek Vyachorka said something like the following: “there will be no politics in Belarus until applicants for the status of politicians learn to clearly articulate their ideas» . Franak named your friend, playwright Nikolai Khalezin, as one of the potential politicians among Belarusians. Do you think Khalezin has a chance to find his niche in Belarusian politics?

- Wow, difficult question. I think that first you need to ask another question: will Nikolai himself want to do this. I don't know how much he needs it. Of course, Vaclav Havel also did not suspect that one day he would become the first president of the Czech Republic... But I think that we should ask Kolya Khalezin whether he wants to change his occupation and become a fiery tribune. Because theater and politics are, after all, different spheres. But in general, you really discouraged me with your question...

— US President Ronald Reagan was actually an actor before starting his political career...

— I agree, but Vaclav Havel, for example, had already turned into a politician by the time he became president. He was no longer “just a playwright.”

I think that now, unfortunately, you and I are only guessing who could become who in Belarus if there were equal opportunities for everyone in your country.

I would only wish for all of us that there will be a time when equal opportunities can be opened for everyone in your country.

I would like the prerequisites to be in place for Khalezin, Sannikov, Vyachorka - and anyone! - could aspire to the role of president. And when everything in Belarus is scorched, poisoned, concreted and rolled into asphalt, proposing one’s candidacy in the presidential elections is the same as throwing oneself at an embrasure tied with grenades. It turns out beautiful, but not for long.

— But is Belarus Free Theater-Isn't this politics yet? Is this pure art?

- No, this, of course, is not art in its pure form. This is contemporary art - and it cannot do without politics; by definition, it cannot be far from relevance. Politics is part of reality, it is part of our current world. But actual theater cannot exist in isolation from reality. Therefore, Belarus Free Theater is also a political theater. But he is not only political. The word "political" is too narrow in meaning in this case.

For Kolya Khalezin and his theater, the social dimension is very important. They study the stories of refugees, the stories of prison and extra-prison executions, including in Belarus. This is both politics and not quite politics - this is life, and everything in it is very mixed. Life, in short, is the theater at Kolya’s with Natasha, which I am fantastically, incredibly happy about.

I remember the times when no one knew about the Belarusian Free Theater, and it didn’t even exist then. And I remember how Kolya sent me one of the first scripts in the early 2000s and asked for a review. Of course, as a person with little understanding of drama, I was not able to do any classical analysis then (and I can’t now either), but I really liked it! Kolya was a completely unsure playwright when it all began.

Now just imagine how much work Khalezin and his team did to create that awesome world-class thing that the Belarus Free Theater became by 2017.

I think that the Belarusian Free Theater is one of the main Belarusian brands in the world. What comes to mind for foreigners? Negative brand “the last dictator” of Europe. You don’t even have to mention your last name, people still know who you’re talking about...

- But “dictators”» there are already at least two in Europe. Moreover, Vladimir Vladimirovich is already head and shoulders above Alexander Grigorievich in this category.

— Russia is, after all, Eurasia; half the country lives beyond the Urals. But if we return to brands, then since I told you about the anti-brand of Belarus, I can also say that among the positive brands abroad, most likely they will name the Belarusian Free Theater and Charter-97. Both there and there people are incredibly dear to me. I don’t know if it’s worth mentioning that a cat has run between them lately, but I hope everything will be fine. Still, I love both.

— I understood your position on Khalezin. Nikolay is a representative of the generation that already in the 1990s was “on the wave» . What have you heard about young leaders, for example, about Zmitser Dashkevich? Do they even know about him in Russia?

“I mostly keep track of what he does through his Facebook posts. He is a desperate, fighting guy. Unfortunately, I don’t know him personally, but the way he behaved during all his numerous arrests and imprisonments evokes only positive emotions in me. I want to wish him strength and health. I like this leader of the Young Front.

But don't delude yourself. Unfortunately, very few people in Russia are interested in the political life of Belarus.

I think that only three types of people are interested in her in Russia: a small group of right-wing liberals, the Russian presidential administration and the FSB, who are interested in knowing what is happening with their closest ally.

— I think that I will not surprise you if I say that very few people are interested in the internal political life of Belarus, even in Belarus itself.

- There is nothing surprising in this. As I said, in your country there is a scorched field, rolled up with an asphalt roller. It's very difficult to get through this. But a green sprout always breaks through the asphalt, there are always desperate people - just like your desperate Dashkevich.

Remember the dissident experience of the Soviet Union. I was lucky enough to personally meet some Soviet dissidents. I was filming a large portrait essay about an absolutely wonderful hero, Vladimir Georgievich Bukovsky. This is the famous Soviet dissident, who was exchanged in 1976 for the leader of the Chilean communists; they also said about Bukovsky “they exchanged a hooligan for Luis Corvalan.” I was filming an essay about Eduard Kuznetsov, who with his comrades obtained permission to emigrate from the USSR for Soviet Jews.

Comrade Corvalan at the XXVI Congress of the CPSU. The USSR loved him so much that a plan was created to free Comrade Lucho from prison in Chile with the help of KGB special forces.

Kuznetsov was able to escape from the Soviet Union by stealing the “corn truck” of the first secretary of the Leningrad regional party committee. For this “airplane affair,” by the way, he was sentenced to death in the USSR. Kuznetsov demanded that Jews begin to be released from the USSR to Israel - and achieved this. So nothing is impossible. Unfortunately, in such harsh conditions, people must decide their fate at the cost of life and death.

When a person is ready to risk his life in a fight with a hundred-headed dragon that reaches the heights of heaven, then a small person is able to defeat the state, just as David defeated Goliath.

The question “will the green sprout of freedom break through the asphalt?” It also torments me in relation to my own country, Russia. I am either an optimist or a pessimist - depending on the weather. Of course, I would like to hope for some changes. On the other hand, it’s very depressing when I see that the vast majority of people in my country simply don’t care what happens to it. There is no need to be active or go to rallies, God bless them. But it is precisely this indifference that is the main breeding ground for the madness that is happening in our countries.

— Maybe the fact is that in both countries there is a demand for similar politicians? Alexander Grigorievich was quite popular in Russia in his first two or three terms?

— Yes, there was a possibility that Lukashenko would first become vice-president, and then instead of grandfather Yeltsin, president.

— Does he now have a chance to take Vladimir Putin’s place?

- No, he doesn’t have a chance. No one. It is my deep conviction, based on what I hear in political and journalistic circles, that this is impossible. As they say, there is very serious internal tension between Lukashenko and Putin.

Putin has, at a minimum, a very strong dislike towards Lukashenko.

I don’t know if Lukashenko has it for Putin. Of course, there is no talk of any love and mutual reverent friendship between the Belarusian and Russian leaders now - unlike the times of Yeltsin. What we see now is the forced coexistence of two allies in a hostile environment.

— What are the roots of Putin’s hostility towards the President of Belarus?

- It seems to me that the fact is that once Boris Nikolaevich (with my great respect for him for many things - which, however, does not cancel my huge claims to him) was looking for a political “son”, a successor. Perhaps there was a short period in the mid-1990s when Lukashenko could have become such a “son”, a pupil of Yeltsin.

Later, Yeltsin took a fatherly look at Bora Nemtsov and, finally, at Putin. It was always a fatherly attitude. I think that is why the current leaders of Belarus and Russia do not have friendly or brotherly relations - and Lukashenko and Putin are approximately the same age. At least from the outside, everything looks that way.

— Now it’s even hard to believe that until recently there was a “holy trinity” in Eastern European politics» - Yeltsin, Lukashenko and Kuchma. Such as God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit...

— And in the role of the holy spirit was the spirit of the communist past!

— And who now acts as the father in the Putin-Lukashenko relationship?

— As I said, between Putin and Lukashenko there is no such father-son relationship as the Belarusian president had with Yeltsin. Putin and Lukashenko have a relationship of cousins. The older cousin doesn't really like the younger cousin - he doesn't have a very good past and doesn't have a very good reputation in the present.

-Who is the older brother in this relationship?

— Putin, of course. This is absolutely understandable and can be seen in their relationship.

— We are seeing one of the episodes of these relations these days: the Russian army has begun to be transferred to the territory of Belarus in connection with the upcoming Zapad-2017 exercises » . Because of this, panic is widespread in Belarus.- as if the Russian army will remain in Belarus after the end of the exercises. How possible do you think such a scenario is?

- Everything is possible. The world is already living in a state of “cold”, if you like, hybrid war. The leaders of international politics have already turned to Putin and Trump with the statement that since the existence of the USSR, Russia has never had such cold relations with the West. There doesn’t seem to be an “Iron Curtain”, but all its signs are there - sanctions, propaganda, counter-propaganda. Everything is as before. Therefore, nothing can be ruled out now.

— And Putin is really ready to build an “iron curtain”» ? Is he ready to completely ban Western media in Russia?

“I don’t think Putin himself is ready for this, and I can’t know for sure. But judging by what has been happening lately on the Duma stage in the Russian Federation, I can say that these people are definitely ready for such a development of events. Our wonderful deputies are constantly testing the waters on this issue.

The intentions of the deputies in the Duma have already been indicated: they are actively clearing the Internet space wherever they can reach.

As far as I can tell, the Russian parliament is preparing to adopt a serious concept of confrontation with foreign media. First of all, Radio Liberty, Voice of America and the BBC will come under attack. Recently, secret hearings were held in the Duma with the participation of the head of the FSB, to which all deputies were prohibited from bringing any gadgets with audio or video recording capabilities, including mobile phones. According to my sources, the discussion there was about how to limit as much as possible the influence on the situation in Russia not only from non-profit organizations, but also from foreign media.

— What about freedom of movement? Are Russian parliamentarians ready for a complete border closure?

“I don’t think everything will be that tough.” It is enough to wait for another drop in oil prices - and Russians will not have any freedom of movement simply because they will not have money to travel. A select few will travel abroad, just as it was in the 1990s.

— And you will have “dissidents” again» in the sense in which they existed in the USSR?

— “Dissidents” already exist in Russia almost in the classical sense. Only now people are not locked away in mental hospitals for anti-Soviet propaganda.

— For example, Putin’s main opponent, Alexei Navalny, is he already a dissident?

— Navalny is a mysterious figure. To be honest, I don’t know which of the Kremlin towers is behind it...

— Do you mean interest groups among the Russian authorities?

- Yes. Now, as before, the most influential two groups are the “liberals” and the “siloviki”. The first is the conditionally liberal clan of Dmitry Medvedev. The second is the conditionally power clan of Igor Sechin. There are also several less influential “sub-clans” who constantly gnaw at each other in the “spider jar” day and night.

— And you assume that Navalny-Kremlin project of one of these clans?

- No, that's not what I wanted to say. Of course, I speak about the “Kremlin towers” ​​with irony. I think that as long as this government needs Navalny, he will not become a dissident in the classical sense. They won’t put him in a “psychiatric hospital” - as you can see, as long as they allow him to do what he does. Apparently, it is beneficial for someone in power for a person like Alexei Navalny to exist. But I don’t want to say that he works on the orders of the authorities.

I think that one of the Kremlin towers - and maybe all of them in turn - derives some benefit from the activities of Alexei Navalny.

And this benefit is so cleverly conceived that we, people far from the Kremlin battlements, cannot even guess about it. We must understand, on the other hand, that Navalny’s brother, who is in prison, is a hostage of the Russian government. And Alexey himself is constantly under the gun of some madmen.

— In 2013, you said that a new trend had appeared on Russian television-Mystic. Is this where crazy people come from?

— Now the fashion for mysticism has already passed. She remained on several channels, but until recently she set the tone on both “first” and “second” and even on my - already former and once dear - NTV. But now they are no longer so keen on mysticism. Times have changed - television people have other topics with which they can scare and intrigue the viewer. Other themes appeared to keep the viewer in the grip and play on his feelings.

Four years ago it was very fashionable: many channels went into mysticism: the mystical TV3, TNT and even Ren-TV, which turned into a lair of “little green men”. One of them is Igor Prokopenko with the “Military Secret” program. This is such a “little green man” who does not leave the airwaves of Ren-TV at all: in the same program he talks about how the West is rotten and how from day to day this same rotten West will come to Russia and destroy everything in it with its power.

How will the West reach us if it has “rotten”? I don't understand!

And after Prokopenko’s “little green man,” another program begins about how Jewish Freemasons, with the help of aliens, seized the White House in Washington and are now trying to take over the whole world from there...

- But people like it! Remember, in 2012 Andrei Loshak released the mockumentary “Russia. Full eclipse» ? Then a huge number of people - in all seriousness!- discussed the fantasies of Loshak and his team as if it were a real story. Why do Russians so easily believe even in such maximally absurd products that are initially created as a joke?

— When I come to the regions, I am often asked: “Pavel, is that psychic show on TV true?” I answer no. This is all fiction from the first to the last word! As a TV personality, I know this! And people from the outback who ask me about psychics on Russian TV still say “we don’t believe you.” Here are Malakhov’s people, for example, this is true. Sometimes they are paid, sometimes they are persuaded, sometimes they are intimidated. It also happens that they are dragged into the studio by force, cunning and deception.

I work on TV, and my relatives in the provinces still say that they cannot believe that the psychic show is fake.

The same thing happened with the psychic show with Loshak’s film. This was the pinnacle of banter! It was an absolutely fantastic story! But people believed even in such a megafake, in which the creators of the film and its heroes did not say a single word seriously - only the implementation was serious. And this is the main secret of success. Much the same, very high quality, propaganda programs are now being produced on a huge number of Russian TV channels.

- Only now they are called not “mystical”, but “analytical” and “news”?

- Exactly. Using the example of “Russia. Full eclipse." you see the power of television. People believed in all this - and it is absolutely impossible to explain to them that it was all fake. Andrey Loshak masterfully brought to the point of complete absurdity what is called “hyperbolization” in journalism. How was it before? “Everything that is written in the newspaper is true.” This is the Soviet principle of thinking and trusting the media and propaganda. Propaganda! In the Soviet Union, the concept of “mass media” did not exist, there were only “SMIP”. Everything that was published in the newspapers was perceived as the ultimate truth. Only this way - and no other way! The history of Soviet newspapers was transferred to modern Russian television: if something was shown on TV, then it was true.

— But there is other journalism, including in Belarus. I know that you were friends with the founder of the Charter-97 website Oleg Bebenin, who was a man who looked at the role of the media and journalism differently.

— Oleg really never cared about what was happening in Belarus - which he proved with his life... and death.

—Was another outcome possible?

“It seems to me that it is not very correct to discuss the issue in this way now.” After all, Oleg was killed - and what can we say now about other options for the development of events? The incredible cruelty of the Belarusian authorities on December 19, 2010 and everything that followed the events of that night - imprisonments, prisons, broken legs, arms, broken skulls, broken destinies - is a logical continuation of what happened to Oleg in the fall of 2010, when he was killed at his dacha.

I don't want to say whether a different outcome was possible, but I can say for sure that it all started with his murder.

Almost all of my friends from Belarus are now political refugees.

Almost all of my Belarusian friends from opposition circles became emigrants and are forced to live outside the country: Khalezin and Kolyada in London, Radina, Bondarenko and Sannikov in Warsaw. The only one who fundamentally remained in Minsk is Irina Khalip. But in general, living without knowing whether you will ever be able to return to your homeland is, of course, a very serious and difficult test.

— A similar experience was experienced by people who were forced to flee the USSR for political reasons- the same Kuznetsov you talked about today. Was there a moment in your life when the history of Soviet persecution turned from “dead” for you? » , book, live history» , really noticeable?

— For me, such a wake-up call was my first visit to Minsk as an NTV correspondent. It was 2000 and before moving to Belarus I never thought that the Stalinist past was so close: this “scoop” around, rudeness in stores, some completely wild fear of administrators in kindergarten who were afraid to take them into their my children's kindergarten because they heard that I work for NTV. “We love you so much, but please go to another kindergarten.”

My wife once had a collection of crossword puzzles with her and she started solving it while she was waiting for someone in the center of Minsk. So the quiet trampler looked over her shoulder at her crossword puzzle and asked, “Why are you writing this down here?” I saw that it was a crossword puzzle and fell through the asphalt.

Then came my deportation. When all this was happening, I realized for the first time that the USSR had not disappeared anywhere, that all this could return in one second, with a snap of fingers.

— Was it different in Russia?

— Still, by 2000, a system had already existed in Russia for several years, which, although with great reserve, could still be called democratic. Yeltsin's reign from 1993 to 1999 (even though everything was really very bad in the economy) was the beginning of democracy in Russia, these were the first bricks of a slowly building, but still democratic society.

There is a very good story that Borya Nemtsov told me. At some point, Yeltsin chose him as his successor and appointed him “crown prince.” Borya told how every week he went to Yeltsin’s dacha several times, and there Boris Nikolaevich, as they say, “trained” Boris Efimovich. Yeltsin brought Nemtsov up to speed: he told and showed what it meant to be president.

And so, on one of these visits, Yeltsin and Nemtsov sat in the living room and watched the “Time” program on TV on ORT. The channel then belonged to Boris Berezovsky, who fought with Yeltsin. Sergei Dorenko appears on the screen. And for about an hour - from the first to the last second - Dorenko said what a scoundrel Yeltsin is, a sick person, an alcoholic, what a bad president he is, how he ruined everything in the country...

As Nemtsov said, that evening on ORT Yeltsin was “both in tail and in mane.”

First, everyone in the family, including the wife and daughters, began to emerge from the room with the TV one by one. Then everyone ran away. Only Nemtsov and Yeltsin remained. Nemtsov told how he looked at Boris Nikolaevich, and he sat in front of the TV and silently filled with blood. His face kept getting redder and redder - and soon became as red as a tomato.

Nemtsov squeezed into the sofa in anticipation that the program would end, and Yeltsin would pick up the phone, call “where necessary,” and after the broadcast, Dorenko would be hanged on one pole at the television center in Ostankino, and Berezovsky on the other. According to Nemtsov, Yeltsin “could have lit a cigarette” when the program ended. He sat filled with anger. He sat for about five minutes. He was silent. And then he walked away a little, looked with bloodshot eyes at Nemtsov and said...

“Well, let’s go have tea.”

What is the story about? The fact that no matter how much they pour Yeltsin out, no matter what they say about him now as president, he had a principled position regarding freedom of speech. This was confirmed to me by Viktor Stepanovich Chernomyrdin, who was extremely sincere in the stories he wanted to share. He told one of them when I was filming the documentary film “Stepanich” about him.

One day, the broadcast of “The Doll” drove Chernomyrdin so mad that he was beside himself with anger. At one of the meetings, he turned to Yeltsin, saying, just look at what “Dolls” are doing: “this is no longer political satire, these are some kind of personal insults, let’s shut this program to hell!” Boris Nikolaevich replied to this

“I endure, and you endure.”

Yeltsin was a native of the Soviet Union and almost all his life he was forced to “keep silent” and submit to the will of the party until he became president. Perhaps that is why it was fundamental for him that, with the fall of communism, people in Russia would finally receive the unconditional right to say whatever they think. I see what is happening both in our country and in your country.

But I hope that both you and I will finally live to see the time when, without any reservations, both Belarusians and Russians will have the right to say whatever they think.

Russian journalist and TV presenter.

Childhood of Pavel Selin

Pavel Viktorovich Selin was born in a small town on the border with Mongolia in a military family: a sergeant major in a tank company and the head of a garrison bakery. I literally had to live in field conditions, but soon my parents moved to the Belgorod region, and after graduating from school Paul entered the Faculty of Journalism of Voronezh State University.

The creative path of Pavel Selin

As a second year student, Paul got on local television - first he worked as a cameraman, freelance editor, and correspondent. Soon he began collaborating with channels RTR And TSN.

In 1997, the journalist was invited to NTV act as a freelance correspondent. In 2001, he received the post of director of the Belarusian Bureau NTV, but due to a conflict with the authorities (with the president of the country Lukashenko) Celine was deported.

In the capital Paul made stories for programs "The other day" , "Today" , "Program maximum" , "Russian sensations". In 2007, he became a correspondent for the documentary program "Main character" .

– In “The Main Hero”, unlike the “Maximum” program where I worked, we practically do not use a hidden camera. This happens in the most extreme cases. And only when we know that our filming can be evidence in court. For example, when we are not allowed into some forbidden territory, where something is being violated, where something is wrong. Such filming is confirmation of our journalistic correctness.

For example, when one of the deputies of the Perm region raped a teenager, a terrible scandal arose, and in order to hide from justice, the “servant of the people” went to the hospital under a plausible pretext. But Pavel Selin and his assistants, armed with a hidden camera and white coats purchased at the Medtechnika store, entered the ward and secretly recorded a conversation with the pedophile.

The journalist is sure that in such situations he acts according to his conscience, because if you are completely honest with the very last scoundrel, then you also have the right to such a journalistic bluff.

Action-packed videos are a strong point Pavla Selina. He was a member of the Masonic lodge, crossed the border with smugglers, ran away from gypsy drug lords and visited places where the average person was prohibited from entering.

Pavel Selin married to the program producer "Maximum", they have twin boys. What the journalist really regrets is that he sees children no more than twice a week.

November 27, 2010 on the channel NTV new talk show launches "The last word", which was hosted by Pavel Selin. This time the investigation will be conducted in the studio, in front of television viewers.

– The last word is what precedes the verdict. But we are not a court, but an investigative talk show. Our task is not to condemn, but to help the viewer thoroughly understand the high-profile case. It is not simple. Victims, eyewitnesses, experts, accused - everyone has their own truth. To convey it, to make the last word - all participants in the program will have this opportunity. And our task - if possible - is to put an end to this matter, i.e. say your last word.